1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,900 Interview with Helmut Dietrich 12/30/2007 in Berlin 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,900 My name is Helmut Dietrich 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,900 I'm working to the refugee and migrations politic for many years 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,900 In the beginning especially at the German-Polish border 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,900 For the last years, I live in North African countries. 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,900 Could you outline the refugee and migration politic of the EU? 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,900 What's happening there? What are the interests of the EU? 8 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,900 cheap manpower 9 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,900 There is an interest on illegalized manpower since several centuries. 10 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,900 The EU is a fabric that grows. 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,900 It depends on expansion to persist economical and political. 12 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,900 It depends on increasing opening to the outer world 13 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,900 accompanied by increasing demarcation. 14 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,900 The borders get shifted to east. 15 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:30,900 In the south, the borders are fix at the moment. 16 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:39,900 When the borders disappear, when they get porous 17 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,900 The possibilities of reproduction, the wages, 18 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,900 the self-confidence of the people are increasing. 19 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,900 It gets possible that the living conditions are equalising. 20 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,900 The keeping of borders or the creation of new borders means 21 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,900 that the inequity gets consolidated. 22 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,900 outboard and inboard. 23 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:12,900 The graduation of hierarchy and debasement 24 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,900 of the living-conditions reflect itself inboard. 25 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:26,900 Are there studies, can you name numbers 26 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,900 which economic value so-called illegal immigrants have? 27 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:44,900 As a rule of thumb: The so-called "econonic miracle" of the 60s 28 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,900 is based on the so-called guest-worker-migration. 29 00:02:51,000 --> 00:03:00,900 On the south european migrants, who came into the factories back then. 30 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,900 And similar another rule of thumb you could say: 31 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:13,900 The economic reconstruction in the European Union 32 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,900 leaving behind the old industries and the new service-sectors 33 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:31,900 is only possible with the help of the illegalized. 34 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,900 This applies worldwide. This applies for North America, 35 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,900 for Australia, the arabic gulf states, 36 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:48,900 for Singapore, for Warsaw. In the centres of this boom 37 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:56,900 the illegalized are planned in tightly at present. 38 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:04,900 A complete legalisation would change the conditions radical to the positive, 39 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,900 would lead to an equalization of the living-conditions. 40 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:16,900 The only definition of complete legalisation is an opening of all borders. 41 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,900 The deadly consequences 42 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,900 What we discuss here as EU refugee-politic 43 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,900 is for many people a death sentence. 44 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,900 Can you say something about that? 45 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,900 Until 1992 there was no visa-requirement for people from North Africa. 46 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,900 Until 1992 they could come over the Mediterranean Sea 47 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,900 with simple boats or big ships. 48 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:54,900 The problem was that they couldn't get a pass from their origin country. 49 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:08,900 But here in Europe they got a legal status very quick. 50 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:23,900 With the introduction of the visa-requirement, with the Schengen-politic 1992 51 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,900 the european countries introduced parallel 52 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,900 the visa-requirement for north african people. 53 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:46,900 This spacial separation meant to the people which came over the Mediterranean Sea 54 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,900 not only an illegalisation, 55 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,900 but they had to come by small boats that are not seagoing. 56 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,900 They die in the sea. 57 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,900 The spanish government said that 6000 people 58 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:25,900 were dying on their way to the Canaries in 2006. 59 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:37,900 If we project that on the time until 1992 we have to speak about 60 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:45,900 the biggest mass grave in postwar Europe. 61 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,900 In the Mediterranean Sea, around Gibraltar, the Canaries, and Sicily. 62 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,900 Bulkheading 63 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,900 A part of the strategy of the EU politic 64 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,900 is the integration of origin and transit countries. 65 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,900 What is happening there? 66 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,900 The goal is that the authorities, police but also the people 67 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,900 are supposed to rethink. 68 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,900 and see migrants, refugees from other african countries as a threat. 69 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:40,800 There is for historical traditions a latent racism in North Africa 70 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:48,900 against people from South Africa. 71 00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:04,800 With the integration of the transit countries in the bulkheading politic 72 00:08:04,900 --> 00:08:07,800 it threatens to switch to open racism. 73 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:14,800 This is a very volatile chapter. 74 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:18,800 It is not only an integration of the north african countries 75 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:28,900 but it is a form of export of frictions, of war risk. 76 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:37,900 The EU can represent itself inbound as civilized, peaceful, stable 77 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:46,900 and exports dangers, a thinking of bulkheading. 78 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:54,900 On the back of the people. On the back of the refugees from the south. 79 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:03,900 You have to say that the so-called development aid to the african countries 80 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:14,900 is fallen behind the armament exports. 81 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,900 The exports of frictions, armament 82 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:27,900 Development politic and neighborhood politic and association agreements 83 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:38,900 make a nicer picture but in reality there are developing 84 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,900 war regions, hunger regions in Central Africa. 85 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,900 Maybe the migration and refugees politic serves as a way 86 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:57,900 to cut the African continent from the developments. 87 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,900 Open the borders 88 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:08,900 What would happen if the borders were opened right away? 89 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,900 If you look at the immigration from north african countries, 90 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,900 it is a gradual increasing, since the 60's until today. 91 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:32,900 There is no cut in 1992, there is no crash in the developing of the migration. 92 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:40,900 You can be sure that an opening of the borders would mean ongoing migration. 93 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,900 It was similar at the eastward enlargement. 94 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,900 Some have spread fear and said 95 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,900 there will come hundreds of thousands or even millions. 96 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,900 It was similar at the enlargement to Spain. 97 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,900 These threat scenarios are unfortunately part of Schengen, 98 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,900 the free travelling of the EU citizens 99 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:15,900 and we have to set out everything to disintegrate the link between 100 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,900 free travelling inbound and bulkheading outbound. 101 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:29,900 Making free travelling possible for all, like we can. 102 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,900 Solidarity and repression in transit countries. 103 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,900 Do you know of solidarity in transit countries for the refugees? 104 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,900 Are there structures who help and want to change 105 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,900 the awareness of the own population? 106 00:11:52,000 --> 00:12:01,900 In Marocco are many refugee groups, solidarity groups, self-organization 107 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:08,900 students, other solidary groups, relatives of drowned people 108 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:18,900 They are able to document very good when a raid happens 109 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:24,900 when deportations happen, when people are drowned. 110 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,900 And this documentation is spread until Europe using email-lists. 111 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:42,900 So you can know what's happening and you can get in contact directly. 112 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:51,900 This applies for Marocco, other countries have less or nothing 113 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,900 because that are partly very repressive countries 114 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:15,900 where imprisonment, disappearance, camps are happening day by day. 115 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,900 When you think from the european perspective, 116 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,900 with which groups you could get in contact? 117 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:34,900 You have to consider at first that that are very repressive structures. 118 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,900 Young people get imprisoned, disappear, they don't know why themselves. 119 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:54,900 They get tortured sometimes, interrogated about anti terrorism, Iraq war, ... 120 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:03,900 In this field incurs the immigration-countering. 121 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:12,900 There are processes every week, where young people get convicted 122 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,900 because they wanted to leave the country "illegal". 123 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,900 They get convicted from half a year to 2 years. 124 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,900 The people who organized it even longer. 125 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,900 Every week. 126 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,900 Living together in another world 127 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,900 We have to work directly with the people together 128 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,900 and experience the links to the south consciously and to live. 129 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,900 start discussions how we wanna live together in another world 130 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:07,900 Apart from the petroleum fences, control technologies and bulkheading. 131 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,900 We have start a dialogue from below. 132 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,900 We have to try to build up perspectives together with the south. 133 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,900 There lies the future. There are lying 134 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,900 the possibilities to do something about the economic disparities. 135 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,900 Work together to develop perspectives against the wars, 136 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:43,900 to invent new things for social co-existence across the borders. 137 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,900 Thank you. 138 00:15:52,000 --> 00:16:01,900 Further informations: